Posts by Jonathan Drake

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@myelaine

yes, exactly. We are agreeing. If you understand the ransom and how it works then you inderstand Jesus death was equal to Adams death... I'm not sure how we are not agreeing here. Adams death lost perfection and ushered in sin, Jesus death was equal to adam and bought mankind back from imperfection and sin... That's the entire point of the ransom. And that's what BOTH the Quran and bible say.

5) So, who paid Adam’s RANSOM?
Jesus (name means Savior) paid the ransom for Adam, because Jesus was sent as the Christ from heaven as a perfect man (John 6:38) and he kept himself 'holy, harmless, and separate from sinners' (Hebrews 7:26).
Jesus gave himself up as a RANSOM for Adam - died in place of Adam - and thereby became the Savior of Adam and all of his offspring, the human race. This RANSOM is the means by which God could justly release Adam (and all mankind) from the death sentence of Eden.

Above taken from:

http://christianityoriginal.com/mp/index.php/good/ransom

Only using this as an effort to explain for me, hoping it is articulated better. Romans 5:12-19 is all about explaining how christs death is equal to adam.. It had to be in order for his death to be a propitiatory sacrifice. Is this not clear?

"God said, 'Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to me: I will purify you of the disbelievers. To the Day of Resurrection I will make those who followed you superior to those who disbelieved. Then you will all return to Me and I will judge between you regarding your differences." [3:55]

"In God's eyes Jesus is just like adam..." [3:59]

elsewhere in this thread I showed where Jesus is said to have died on a cross and been raised to heaven in the Quran, and here it says he was just like adam to God- which is the entire point of his being the ransom...

at at this point if you don't see it its just a refusal to do so, we should just agree to disagree. We don't have to see eye to eye on everything.

i will concede a point of my own making here however, the Quran states Jesus Father as the judge in that verse where the bible says the Father judges no one at all. So that seems a contradiction. Despite this however, Jesus was equal to Adam, and died and was resurrected in both, and people are told to have faith in this and believe in both.

37

What could you have been if you were never a JW?

by minimus in

jw
friends

oh, the possibilities!

there is a lot of wasted talent.

Jonathan Drake

I spend hours every day wondering about this topic. And i truly don't know. I didn't even have any hobbies until I was 16. Unless you count video games, which is useless.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I'm going to ignore the circular Quran argument we are having, because it does say christs death was equal to Adam. And once again, it does say it is meant to be taken along with the bible, thus all of the "meat" is already established by the bible. but we may as well stop talking about it now.

As as far as the antichrist accusation goes...

you want exactly the opposite of what Jesus prayed for.

I do not want the opposite of it. However, as the bible clearly explains, Christianity was always going to be corrupted by the man of lawlessness mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. There is no entity around today that calls itself christian that isn't neck deep in evil and disgusting things. They are all responsible for harming people to varying degrees. If you think, honestly, that these groups and organizations represent christs interests as they are portrayed in the bible- then I think the one with the skewed ideas is most certainly not me.

i was not proposing an end to Christianity. I was proposing the world would be a better world without religion. There is no religion just called, "Christian." Only many different denominations there of- all doing horrible things.

as far as the other posts, I really don't see how it's totalitarian to make it illegal to provide an environment that fosters moleststions of children, robbery, fraud, and undue influence of children against education, as well as anti gay movements, anti-contraceptive teachings that foster poverty and force children to be born in terrible circumstances..... I could go on. Personally, I don't see a problem with outlawing something that fosters all the above and more. How can anyone really have a problem with that? I know it's not something likely to ever work or even be feasible but is it really so stupid to think it should happen in the face of all this?

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Who defines what is and isn't religion?

The dictionary:

a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhistreligion.

Make it against the law to agree upon a set of beliefs as a group or under any man- no more religion.

If you think you can stop people vying for power by saying "OK, please stop vying for power" then I suggest you go and talk to everyone in the middle east.

No, I was suggesting being imprisoned and/or fined for the offense- not a polite request. A cop doesn't just pull you over and politely ask you to stop speeding.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@myelaine

i really don't think I missed the point of your post. I made a blanket statement in aggravation about Christians condemning someone who irritates them to hell. Firstly, this is only inaccurate because there does exist a minority of Christians who wouldn't. Secondly, this was the entire thrust of your response, that you and your prayer group wouldn't do such a thing. I apologized because I should not have made a blanket statement like that, and I hold to that apology.

Further, if religion were outlawed then no one person or group would ever be allowed to be vying for power- because doing so is attempting to make a religion. Once the precedent was established that the government would come down on the religions leader and followers with an iron hammer, there would be no red tape to go through before subduing and imprisoning any who attempt to do this immediately.

One way or another, by force or, as others have stated here, just by time- religion will soon not exist. It's inevitable. Sam Harris says something in the earlier posted debate that I actually agree with. He defines extemeism as anything that negatively effects society, such as creationists teaching children evolution isn't true when it undeniably is true. This has a negative effect on society, and I agree. The harmful effects of religion are not all so direct as to kill people. They enslave minds and bind people to the will and desire of a MAN and HIS twisted idea of what the bible or Quran teaches.

In this way, religions either are killing people through doctrines that tell them to kill or otherwise die (blood doctrine), or they are robbing people of their potential by making them deny reality in various ways, which not only robs that person but also the world. I.e., how many Alber Einsteins have been lost to doctrines against higher education or restrictions against scientific pursuits because of brainwashed creationsism that would otherwise have made amazing discoveries and launched us into a better future?

religion, and the men in charge of them are vile and evil organizations that deserve to be repaid for all of their terrible deeds, policies and committed atrocities. The sooner people can see that God and religion are not mutually exclusive (or even in any way connected other than using God to be evil) the better off we all will be.

25

Do the Rank & File JW's REALLY read and understand the bible to be able to REALLY start a study with someone???

by ADJUSTMENTS in

i believe the average rank & file are illiterate when it come to the bible because they are so used to using the wbats cliff notes... even though i believe the bible is a fiction novel, at least be able to explain a novel you hold is such high regard: i mean jesus!!!

.

Jonathan Drake

Viviane10 hours ago
JWs, like most Christians, do not understand their holy book particularly well.

So you're saying they're fake. (Just kidding)

i agree with you.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

JD, you're demonstrating that you are an excellent example of a Christian. Well done, sir.

I hope so, thank you.

71

Are we heading for III World War?

by abiather in

the leaders of russia, germany, france and ukraine are slated to meet in minsk (the belarusian capital) tomorrow to discuss a ukrainian peace plan!

some countries such as hollande believe there is going to be a total war.

when they met last year in the same place, they had put forward a peace plan (a ceasefire, withdrawal of artillery, prisoner exchanges and other concessions) that were never fully implemented!

Jonathan Drake

US and Russia are not going to have a nuclear exchange over Ukraine. As WOPR found out in the movie Wargames - the only way to win a nuclear war is by

I was thinking this same thing. The only thing I would say as a different position from the rest of your post is I could see things getting to at least some warfare - but not WW3. I hold this opinion only because of something Obama recently said, where he indicated that America would give lethal aid to Ukraine if talks don't work. If that happens, I could see Russia flexing its muscle a bit and just maybe that'd bring on a war with them, but not nuclear - no way.

Look at what Russia did with the UK recently, flying their bombers through (or was it close to) their airspace. This to me is VERY risky, it's like playing poker and your opponent raises the pot by some huge amount - I wouldn't call the bluff.

13

The Theory Of Everything

by 88JM in

question: should able-bodied actors play characters with disabilities?.

i got myself into a bit of a quandary over a discussion on a facebook group.

it was partly based on this article in the guardian:.

Jonathan Drake

How would the less-able-bodied actor be able to play the character before the disease?

This. And i don't think anyone has the right to complain when the man himself has praised the performance. Just my opinion.

25

Do the Rank & File JW's REALLY read and understand the bible to be able to REALLY start a study with someone???

by ADJUSTMENTS in

i believe the average rank & file are illiterate when it come to the bible because they are so used to using the wbats cliff notes... even though i believe the bible is a fiction novel, at least be able to explain a novel you hold is such high regard: i mean jesus!!!

.

Jonathan Drake

Honestly I would say they largely do understand enough to start the study. The cult stuff doesn't come in until well after its started, and it doesn't get REAL serious until after yiur baptized and you realize your trapped. Lol